（由Patrick Bouster从根据原始的意大利语交谈的法译版翻译成英语，然后我再翻译成中文，并在其中根据所谈论的电影情节或其他相关内容做了一些补充。几经周转，难免有误，敬请谅解。英文原文在此：http://www.chimai.com/resources/specials/france-musiques.cfm，并有所提音乐片断的欣赏和下载。原文的注解出自Patrick Bouster）

这次访谈来自Radio France的法国－音乐（France-Musiques）频道，分为三部分连续在星期天播出，时间为2002年10月20日、27日和11月3日，中午12点整。关于提到的电影在节目中有影片片断和音乐的插播。
提问者：Marc-David Calvet

第一部分：《教会》和朱塞佩托那托雷的电影
[关于4CD集锦“Io, Ennio Morricone”的问题]

M：这是第一次，一套唱片的发行涵盖了一个作曲家作品的所有层面，他的所有风格，虽然其中一些仅仅是冰山一角，毕竟在4小时30分钟的时间内不可能体现一个作曲家完整的创作生涯。这套唱片内容丰富，很好地代表了我创作的特色，我认为这一点是独一无二的。这四张CD无论从音乐上还是精神上，都很好地概括了一个作曲家的职业生涯。

C：你常说：“我首先是一个音乐作曲家，然后，仅仅是然后，才是一个电影作曲家。” 那么你为什么这样说呢？

M：很多人都以为我是从创作电影音乐起步，然后才开始创作纯音乐作品的，但事实上根本不是这么一回事。我首先开始创作纯音乐，然后一些导演找到了我，我才开始为电影写音乐。因为我常常为电台、电视或剧院等场所做编曲，积累了一些经验，并且小有名气，所以就引起了电影界的注意。

C：关于《教会》这部电影，据说导演Roland Joffé想要的是电子音乐，这.....

M：这个电影所描述的故事是真实的，它发生在18世纪，对音乐来说，那是个器乐复兴的时代。影片里的音乐是由一个吹双簧管的神父带到南美洲的。通过他的双簧管，他不仅带来了器乐，而且还有特兰托委员会(1)准则，这是个发起于16世纪末的组织。它通过制定一些准则来规范礼拜音乐，其中帕莱斯特里纳(2)的作品是这类音乐的主要代表。这就是《教会》电影音乐创作中源自西方音乐的两个部分：宗教音乐和器乐。而《教会》音乐的第三个元素就是当地土著瓜拉尼人的民俗音乐。

C：具体地说，特别是关于瓜拉尼人的土著音乐，你有没有和确切了解这类音乐的民族学家有过接触？

M：我了解音乐史，我知道这个时期在南美洲和西方国家都是什么样的音乐，我因此就可以把这三个要素糅合起来。
这是电影中当Altamirano主教访问当地土著时的一段音乐：Ave Maria Guarani....（瓜拉尼人的圣母颂）【音乐播放】
【真是太美了！】
...但它和瓜拉尼音乐没有任何联系。事实上它显示了西方宗教音乐在特兰托委员会成立之后，通过耶稣教士，已经被移植到了南美的土地上，并且是以一种有缺陷的形式表现出来，因为当地的印第安人并不会以欧洲人那样的方式演唱。于是我们就试图寻找那些不同血统来源的，唱得不太好的，有嗓音缺陷的或嗓音比较奇特的人来演唱，以期在这样的表现中达到西方音乐和民族音乐的融合。为了得到这样的效果，我们可是费了一番功夫。导演的意思是通过一些大使馆的帮助去找一些不同国家的、不懂音乐的人来。而我却有另外的想法：那就是把合唱队以不同寻常的方式来配置。通常一个合唱队的各个声部（女高音、男高音等等）都是按次序编排在一起，以便每一个歌手都可以听到他那个声部的声音。现在我选择打乱这个次序，把各个声部的歌手分散开来，然后我发信号大家开始唱，于是那就象....我实在难以形容这样的效果！【笑】

C：谈到你和Giuseppe Tornatore的合作，我尤其想提两部电影，因为在这两部电影里，音乐都是以很完整的形式表现出来的：海上钢琴师和新天堂电影院。你认为和这位导演以及Gilda Buttà的合作如何呢？

M：Gilda Buttà是在所有的钢琴曲目刚写完之时就把它们弹奏出来，只除了那些爵士段落。Jelly Roll Morton的那些爵士作品在老唱片上的音质已经有所损坏，在电影里它们是用电脑重新处理过后出现的。

C：在电影的开头，“弗吉尼亚”号轮船到港的那场戏是最精彩的片断之一。我想到了你关于电影音乐最著名的一段陈述：音乐影片故事里面传出，然后渐渐向故事之外蔓延。(3)

M：不，对于这个主题来说，并没有这样的演变过程。这段音乐开始于电影之外，最后又结束于电影之外。在麦克斯卖了他的小号的那个古董店里，音乐还有一个消散的过程。

C：谢谢你，Ennio Morricone。很遗憾我们没有时间谈论托那托雷的另一部电影《天堂电影院》了。但是我们会在节目的第二部分讨论塞尔乔莱昂内（Sergio Leone）的电影。

注：
(1)一个基督教理事会，以重建基督教堂条律为宗旨，开始于1545-1563年间。
(2)Giovanni Pierluigi, Da Palestrina（1525-1594），复调和宗教音乐大师。作品众多：弥撒、赞美诗等等。
(3)影片的这段主题音乐此刻出现，即“The legend of the pianist on the ocean”。但在这个影片的法国版里，出现了一些小号演奏的片断，音乐上多了一些变化，与原声CD和意大利版DVD里的有所不同。

第二部分：音乐在电影里的角色以及《西部往事》

C：以这首A l'aube du 5e jour(1)作为极好的引介，我们再次请到了Ennio Morricone，他将告诉我们他通常如何看待音乐在电影中的角色。我们将谈到塞尔乔莱昂内以及他那部礼拜式的《西部往事》里音乐所起到的重要作用。

你曾经说过对于一部电影，重要的是音乐要在观看者没有意识到的情况下进入和离开。

M：这是个技术问题...我必须告诉你我的想法，我将从我确信的几条原则开始说起。
电影音乐是唯一的一个可以游离于电影之外的元素，无论它是出现在电视上、剧场里还是唱片上...针对一个场景的音乐来源而言。我所说的音乐是指那些可以传递故事含义，从而表现电影以及角色的内在的音乐。这样的音乐虽然常常被导演和作曲家滥用，但是它的确很适合电影的需要。当导演以某种方式作出决定时，音乐就要被听到。如果观众没有时间去感觉音乐的出现，那就错了。非现实元素（音乐）出现的同时影片现实的音响就应该渐渐消失。这是了解电影音乐最好的方式，无论是对于需要音乐的导演还是创作音乐的作曲家而言。为什么这是最好的途径，有以下几个理由：首先人类的大脑和耳朵，非专业的耳朵，是不可能同时听两个不同的声音元素的。如果我们象以往那样仅仅把所有的声音，对话、音效、动作噪音和音乐同时混合在一起的话，那观众根本不可能清楚地分辩出音乐的存在。 C：我们现在看到的是塞尔乔莱昂内电影《革命往事》的开场戏。在墨西哥一条炎热的公路上，胡安米兰达（Juan Miranda），一个劫匪，遇到了一个骑着老式摩托车的高个男人，肖恩马罗里（Sean Mallaury），一个爱尔兰革命者，炸药专家。一枪打在摩托车上从而开始了两个男人之间的故事。但是在此之前，音乐首先就带着一股嘲弄的意味从远处飘来。【音乐播放】

M：其次是在于听众，我不能没有过渡地突然用上一段音乐，因为观众需要时间来接受并认同音乐出现的理由。这个准备过程是绝对必要的。音乐在“这里”开始，却要稍后才能被观众“听”到。这同样的原则也适用于音乐的结束，就是渐渐消失而给予时间让其他元素进入。（淡入淡出！）
如果音乐没有一个“缓冲空间”来呈现它自己，那音乐和其他声响的剥离就变得不可能。音乐是电影里唯一一个抽象的元素，正因为它的抽象，所以它必须和现实分离。如果不是这样，那我们就只能得到一个不可听的糟糕的混响。我们通常不会察觉听这个过程（所需要的）时机和容量：能量、空间和时间（我称为E.S.T.，即意大利语Energia,Spazio,Tempo）。没有这三个要素，那电影中音乐应用的奇迹就不会存在。

C：在这里我们可以找到你所说的这条原则—音乐的“浮现”—在《西部往事》，Claudia Cardinale坐火车到站时的那场戏【音乐播放】，她本以为会有人在那里等着接她，然而没有人。渐渐地她脸上那经过长途旅行到达目的地的欢愉被失望所取代。（伴随这个过程）音乐悄然步入，给这个场景注入一股忧郁的气息，并且（随着镜头从车站渐渐推向整个西部小镇的全景），音乐也迅速蔓延至遥远西部的广阔空间，赋予这部电影一种史诗般的色彩。
但有时也会有这样的情况出现——请你谈谈为什么——音乐的突然而至，给人一种陡然一击的感觉。当那个小男孩目击了（片刻间）对他家人的谋杀而（从屋里）飞奔出来时，突然地，我们就听到了这段吉他【音乐播放】：这又是另外一回事了吧。
（译者注：影片中这段音乐出现时，其背景是即将结束的大屠杀，突如其来的令人战栗的电吉他声，以及穿插其间的凄厉的口琴声，犹如“贝九”里那恐怖的号角，意味着死亡的主题，给观众带来一种极其震撼的效果）

M：在这里我们必须配合片中人物动作的突然性，在音乐上获得一种机械效应和足够的响度。这（对于我上面谈到的原则）是一个例外。当Frank（亨利方达）出现时，所有其他的声音突然消失，只听到音乐以一种刺耳的方式响起。这样的效果是有其戏剧上的原因的，因为我们知道刚刚所发生的一切：在这个男孩面前的是杀害他父亲、姐姐和兄弟的凶手。因此在这里音乐的“袭击”的突然性，也是由这个突然的暴力场景所营造的。
然而如果你留意的话，这里（音乐的突袭）其实也是有一个伏笔的，即口琴声—及其他—预示了这种“突袭”。听众（在影片的开头）已经明了这口琴声所代表的可怕含义，它具有死亡和悲剧的含义。于是通过这样乐器，随着电影情节的发展，即使没有看见其本人，仅仅用音乐传达，我们就已经塑造了Frank这个人物的性格。

C：（在这段大屠杀的）10分钟前，即影片开头主题音乐出现（之前）的那一段，当火车离开，亨利方达（的）三个手下和Charles Bronson扮演的那个口琴手对峙之时，我们就已经听到了这具有预警性的口琴声。来听听这段配乐...【音乐播放】
（译者注：原文里写道亨利方达和他的三个手下与口琴手对峙，这是错误的，影片开头只有Frank的三个手下出现，他本人并未在场。这个错误可能是多次转译所致。）

我还想提醒大家注意那段于我而言是电影剪辑史上最惊人的一笔。在对Mcbain一家的大屠杀之后仅仅剩下那个小男孩时，他也将要被杀，但他的死亡画面却被巧妙地回避了，我们仅仅看到屏幕上Frank左轮手枪的发射，但子弹出膛的声音却转瞬被急驰而至的火车汽笛声所替代。
（译者注：还有一说是担心美国观众不能直接面对一直代表正义人物形象的亨利方达干出这种对小孩子下手的暴行。然莱昂内说，亨利方达又怎样，他也不是一个善类，逼得自己的老婆自杀，还照样能跨过她的尸体外出象什么事都没有发生一样。）

你怎样和塞尔乔莱昂内一起合作呢？

M：他跟我谈他的影片甚至具体到一些画面…

C：他是否以一种“非常罗马式”的语气谈论这些呢？

M：当然，他言语简洁，从不让自己表现出知识分子的腔调，并且他也很清楚自己并不是在拍摄一部知识分子的电影，即使这部电影具有深刻的含义。他叙述（他对于影片的构思）于是我回家考虑音乐，然后让他听一些音乐片断。通常他都很欣赏我为他写的那些音乐，即使某些音乐他第一次听并不满意，但听多几遍后他仍然会接受。但塞尔乔最古怪的一点是，他总是乐于听听那些别的导演弃之不用的音乐主题，并且把这些别人看不上眼的东西拿来为自己所用。每当我让他听这样的主题时，他的同事们则对此一无所知！【笑】。他喜欢从其他人的“废品”里挑选一些对自己有用的音乐，这于他而言已经成为了一种游戏。 注：
(1)：Lontano，电影“Gott mit uns”（上帝和我们）中那段著名的主题。

第三部分： 塞尔乔莱昂内的电影

C：塞尔乔莱昂内在一次访谈中说到他为什么要采用《西部往事》的那段“序曲”(1)。一开始他让你为那场戏写音乐，但随后改变了主意。关于这场戏你或许会说：“这无疑是我所创作的最好的电影音乐。”

M：在电影开拍时这段音乐还没有写好，尚在讨论中。对于影片开始的这二十分钟，问题在于如何使用真实自然的声音，并让这些声音变成音乐。因为在这段真实的音效中（水声，磨房的风车以及风的声音等等…），我们稍后将加入代表人类意义的口琴声。在20分钟后，口琴的声音进入，与其他那些自然的声响相反，这已经是一种人类的声音了。
为这个场景设想的这个念头其实是来源于我告诉他我的一次经历。如果你不打断我的话，我可以告诉你是怎么回事。

C：不，【笑】我保证不会的。

M：因为（如果被打断的话）人们将不会明白我所说的事情。
我和Nuova Consonanza乐队一起去弗罗伦萨的Luigi Cherubini (2) 音乐学院演出，我们将在音乐会的第二部分，即晚上9点出场。然而直到9点45分，演出还没有开始。起先人们都在交谈而没有注意到演出的延误。就在几分钟前，一个带着短笛的男人出现，人们并没有注意到他。然后他踩着一把梯子爬上了剧场的一个包厢；他拿起他的梯子并使它吱吱作响。这个人其实就是Egisto (*)，而人们却根本没有意识到！但是到了10点钟，人群里终于有人开始疑惑到底发生了什么，并且明白了剧场里正在进行的事情，然后人们渐渐安静下来。于是在完全肃静的大厅里，那把梯子继续吱吱作响，此时这种声音对于现场的听众来说就（非常突出），显得比它本身更为重要。过了一会，这个男人拿着梯子离开，于是音乐会的第一部分就此结束。
我把这件事告诉了塞尔乔，他因此而推论一些自然的声音，风车、苍蝇（当然它的声音是在录音室模拟出来的）、电报机…等等，都足以构成影片开头那段等候戏（所需要的音效），那可真是一个富有戏剧性的场景，即使它足足有20分钟之长。我想他可能早有这种想法，因为如果我把那次经历告诉其他人，他们也许根本不会在意。塞尔乔莱昂内明白这样一个事实，那就是要想把一种声音从它的现场背景中剥离出来，那么在一片寂静中才能更好地达到这样的效果。

C：让我们再来谈谈《好坏丑》里墓地那场戏吧【音乐播放】。这场戏如今已经成为电影学院里教授的样板了。

M：我早就有直觉这段场景将会成为（影史上）非常重要的一个片段，因为它是影像和音乐相互作用、结合的一个最完美的例子。

C：关于这场压轴戏，塞尔乔莱昂内（从某种意义上来说）是演绎了一场“芭蕾”，一种“舞蹈艺术”。

M：是的，因为这场戏只有一个演员，在一个圆形的墓地，随着音乐而移动，除此之外再无其他。在排完这场戏之后莱昂内自己就认为它像一场芭蕾表演。

C：你在这里使用了一些乐器比如英国管。
（译者注：我原先写《好坏丑》音乐时以为是双簧管，非专业人士，抱歉出现了这样的错误。）

M：这段音乐主题，长度大约3’20或3’30，其实是我所写过的最简单的旋律之一。此曲采用了两个五度音程，这也是我最喜爱的方式，经常使用，因为它是一种最完美的音程，几乎是毫无偏颇，它可以使我在创作中使用某些悬留法（把一和弦内的一个或几个音符延长至下一和弦以制造暂时的不和谐音）。
（在乐曲前段一串）钢琴（琶音）之后，英国管便是以这种二五度音程进入：la mi do mi, la mi si sol【哼唱着这些音符】mi si sol, do re mi, sol do re mi….(3)。于是只用了钢琴上的八个键，我就得到了这个主题并把它发展成为三分二十秒的曲子。
（随着钢琴淡出，）这个主题渐渐发展，声音逐步积聚（英国管被女高音和弦乐取代）。然后钢琴又突然加入，不断干扰这条主旋律线【哼唱钢琴部分】，同时还有铜管乐器，小号穿插到这个五度音程中来。
当角色（Tuco）在半途突然停下时，带着一种拼死一博的激动，此刻我让节奏和旋律都突然中止，然后只允许自己用了一个过渡乐节。我有这种意象，在神圣庄严的墓地里寻找金钱的人都活该受到一种神秘的圣灵的嘲笑。他在琢磨该往何处寻找，他并不知道（要找的那个墓具体在哪里），随着这个过渡乐节的结束，他又开始继续奔跑。
这是影片里非常重要的一场戏，于我而言，它也是一次重要的音乐创作。对于这3分20秒，莱昂内要求我的音乐做到与人物动作的“间歇”完全同步来暗示所发生的一切。而我所考虑的并不是音乐的中止而是在不中断音乐的前提下使之和人物的动作同步。这段音乐里唯一的一次中断就是我刚刚谈到的，当Tuco停止奔跑时，我的音乐也同时中止，而音乐再次停止，便是在最后了。（Tuco终于找到了刻着那个名字的墓，脚步突然停下，而音乐也随之夹然而止。）

注：
(1)：开场白
(2)：1760-1842，指挥兼作曲家
(*)：Egisto Macchi，电影和现代作曲家（1928-1992）
(3)：此处也许有转载错误。

Translated to English by Patrick Bouster from a French translation of the original Italian words.
Notes by the last translator.

Broadcast by the radio channel France-Musiques in 3 parts on Sundays October 20, 27 and November 3, 2002, at 12:00 PM. The discussions about the films mentioned were illustrated by film and music excerpts.

The questions are by Marc-David Calvet.

Part 1: The Mission and the Giuseppe Tornatore films

[On the question of the 4CD box compilation Io, Ennio Morricone]

It is the first time that a disc presents all the aspects from the work of a composer, in all his styles, even if some productions are only evoked, because it is impossible indeed in 4 hours and 30 minutes to show the whole life of a composer.
There are a lot of things, very representative of my occupation, and I believe it is a unique situation. The 4 CDs make up, musically and morally, a summary of the life of a composer.

You usually say: "I am first of all a music composer, and only after, a film composer." What did you mean by this?

A lot of people believe that I began with the cinema, and then started to write "absolute music"; it is not true. I began with writing "absolute music", and then I worked for the cinema because some directors called to me. I made experiences of arrangements for the radio, the television, the theatre... Therefore, I became known and was called for the cinema.

For the film The Mission, Roland Joffé wanted eclectic music...

The film story is true: it happened in the 18th century, in a period, musically, of a renewal of the instrumental music. This music is brought by a priest, playing oboe, in South America. He brings not only the instrumental music, with his oboe, but the rules of the Trento's council (1), dating from the end of the 16th century. It established some rules to put some order in the liturgical music, for which Palestrina (2) is the main responsible.
Here are the two roots of the occidental music, put in the film The Mission: the liturgical music rules and the instrumental music. A third element added is the ethnic music, from the Guaranis.

Concretely, on the special point of the natives' music of the Guaranis, did you have some contacts with ethnologists, who know precisely this music?

I know the music history, the music of this period, in South America, and in occidental countries. I could therefore put together the three elements.
There is a musical piece while the cardinal Altamirano is visiting the natives: Ave Maria Guarani...
(Very very beautiful!)
...which has nothing to do with the Guarani's music. It shows already the intrusion of the occidental liturgical music, by the Jesuits, after the Trento's council, transplanted in South America and badly sung. Because Indians could not sing like European people.
We looked for singers from diverse origins, who didn't sing well, who had voice problems, who did some "strange" sounds. There were therefore occidental and ethnic elements, united in this performance. We had to do some efforts to have this result. The director's idea was to take different people, with the help of several embassies, who did not know the music. I added another idea: to dispose the choir in an unusual manner. Classically, the groups of singers of a choir (soprano, tenor, ...) are put together, in order, for each singer, to hear his group. I chose to disperse the singers to break this order. I gave the signal to begin and it was a... I don't want to say the word![laughs]

You worked with Giuseppe Tornatore, and I'd like to select especially two films, for their most musically completed form: La leggenda del pianista sull'oceano and Nuovo Cinema Paradiso. How was the collaboration between this director, Gilda Buttà and you?

Gilda Buttà performed all the piano pieces immediately when they were written, but not the jazz pieces. The Jelly Roll Morton pieces were of bad sound quality in the old discs: they have been newly treated with the computer.

At the beginning of the film, the arrival of the boat "The Virginia" is one of the greatesr moments. I thought of your famous statement about film music: the music goes from the interior, and little by little, goes to the exterior.(3)

No, in these main titles, there is not, at all, this evolution. This part goes from the exterior of the film and finishes at the exterior. There is a "dissolution" in the antique dealer shop, where he sells his trumpet.

Thank you, Ennio Morricone. We did not have the time, unfortunately, to evoke the other film by Tornatore, Cinema Paradiso. But we will comment, in a second part, the Sergio Leone's films.

Notes :
(1) Ecumenical council, which restored discipline in the Christian church, and took place between 1545 and 1563.
(2) Giovanni Pierluigi, Da... (circa 1525-1594 ), master of the polyphonic and religious music. Numerous works : masses, motets, ...
(3) The sound of these main titles is heard at this moment, supported by the track The legend of the pianist on the ocean. But in this French version, the trumpet plays several notes, putting more modulations, different from the original version found in the CD and the Italian DVD.

Part 2 : the role of the music in the film, and C'era una voltà il West

With this superb introduction, A l'aube du 5e jour (1), we start again with Ennio Morricone, who will tell us how he sees the role, in general, of the music for the cinema. We will speak about Sergio Leone and the importance of the music in the cult-film C'era una voltà il West.

You said that what is important in a film, is that the spectator doesn't perceive when the music enters and leaves.

For this technical aspect... I must tell you my thought about it, and I will start from the principles which gave me this conviction.
The music for a film is the unique element which is exterior to the film, save the cases where it comes from a television, a theatre, a disc... a source music in a sequence. I speak about the music which represents the interiority of the film, of the characters, in the sense of the story. This music is a sort of abuse from the director and the composer, but it suits well. As the director has decided in a certain way, the music must be audible. If the spectator doesn't have the time to listen to the beginning of the music, it is wrong. At the same time a non-realistic element (the music) emerges and the sounds of the reality end little by little. It is the best way to begin to understand what film music is, wanted by the director and written by the composer, author of the music. There are several reasons why it is the best solution: the human brain and ear, the non-expert ear, are not able to listen to more than two different elements. If we work with the old-fashioned mixing, the dialogues, the sound effects, the noise from the action and the music at the same time, it is not possible to figure it all out.

We are now in the first sequences of Giù la testa by Sergio Leone. On a hot road in Mexico, Juan Miranda, a bandit, meets a tall man seated on an old motor-bike, Sean Mallaury, an Irish revolutionary, a dynamite expert. A shot in the bike and all the story begins between these two men. Above all, the music comes from far away and uses a jeering tone.

And there, the reason is the audience: I cannot use a piece immediately, without transition, because the spectators need time to accept and integrate the reason why the music is heard. This preparation time is absolutely necessary. The music begins "here" but is heard later. It is the same principle for the end of the music: to disappear progressively to let the time for the other element to enter in the sequence.
If the music has no "temporal space" to express itself, the isolation of the music in the other sounds is not possible. The music is the only abstract element. To be abstract, the music must be isolated from the reality. If not, we have a horrible mix, not audible. We miss the volume, the timing of the listening: the energy, the space, the time (I call it E.S.T., in Italian : Energia, Spazio, Tempo). Without that, the miracle of the application of the music to a film doesn't exist.

We find this principle - the "music rising" - in the sequence in which Claudia Cardinale arrives at the station where she believes to be waited, in C'era una volta il West. Nobody at the date, and little by little on his face, the joy of the arrival gives place to the disappointment. And the music brings to this sequence a melancholic climate, which soon invades the large spaces of the Far West, giving to the movie his dimension of legend.
It happens sometimes - but you will say why - that the music comes immediately, like a slap. While the young boy observes the murder of his family, he runs, and suddenly, we hear the guitars: it is something else.

Here we had to obtain a mechanical effect and the loudness of the music was analogue to the action's violence. And this is an exception. All the sounds have disappeared, only is heard the music and in a harsh way when Frank (Henry Fonda) appears. There is a dramatic reason for this effect, because of what happened: before this boy, there were the murders of the father, the sister... Therefore, the violence of the music "attack", alone, was as the sequence was built.
But if you pay attention, there is, here too, a preparation. The sound of the harmonica prepared - and not only - the "attack". The audience already understood the meaning of this harmonica, terrifying. It already possesses a sense of death and tragedy. With this instrument, we characterized, along the film - even without seeing it, only the music - Frank's character.

Ten minutes before, this premonitory harmonica is heard in the sequence following the main titles: Henry Fonda and his 3 tough guys are in front of Charles Bronson after the train left the station. Let's hear this sequence...

I'd like to remind you of the most amazing editing point, according to me, of the history of cinema. After the family's massacre only remains the young boy, who will be shot, but the death of whom is modestly eluded. Only the shot from Frank's revolver and in the same sound we tilt over into a whistling of a train running fast.

How did you work with Sergio Leone ?

He told the film to me and even the images...

Did he speak with "very Roman" adjectives?

Of course. He was talking very simply. He did not give himself an intellectual appearance. And he knew that he was not making an intellectual film, even if there were deeper meanings. He narrated and I thought about this at home. And later, I had him listen to some musical pieces. Generally, he enjoyed what I wrote for him, at the first time or at another listening, afterwards. But the most curious thing with Sergio, is that he also wanted to listen the musical themes other directors had left out! And he took them "eyes shut". I had him listen to these themes, and his colleagues understood nothing! [laughs]. He wanted to choose some music among the "wasted ones" from others. It has became a sort of game.

Notes:
(1) : Lontano, main and famous theme from Gott mit uns

Part 3: the Sergio Leone movies

Sergio Leone said in an interview about what he evoked as the "overture" (1) of C'era una volta il West. He suggested you'd write music for it, but then changed his mind. You would have said, about this sequence: "it is without any doubt my best film music".

The music was not written, it was still on discussion before working (2). For the [first] twenty minutes, the question was to use real sounds, and make these sounds become music. Because, in this reality, we would put the harmonica, which had a human meaning, with other sounds of the water, the mill, the wind... After 20 minutes, the harmonica enters, and has already a human sound, at the contrary of the other sounds.
This idea, for this sequence comes from an experience I told him. I can tell it to you, provided you will not cut it.

No, no [laughs] I promise.

Because people wouldn't understand.
I came with the group Nuova Consonanza at the Luigi Cherubini (3) Conservatory of Firenze. We had to play the second part, at 9:00 PM. And at 9:45 PM, it was not yet begun. People were talking and were not concerned by the delay. Several minutes before, a man with a piccolo arrived - people did not pay attention to him. Then, he climbed on a ladder and then on a balcony; he took his ladder and began to make it creak. It was Egisto (*). People were completely indifferent to that! But at 10:10 PM, the persons of the public wondered what was going on and began to understand what was happening in the hall, and the silence came progressively. The ladder creaking sound continued in a great silence and became much more important for the audience than it was really. After some time, this man took his ladder and disappeared. End of the first part of the concert.
I told this episode to Sergio. He deducted that the sounds of the mill, the fly, [imitating these sounds] the telegraph...,could sustain a wait sequence, a dramatic one, even of 20 minutes long. He had already this thought in his mind. If I told this story to somebody else, he wouldn't have cared about it. Sergio Leone understood that the fact to isolate a sound from his real context gets reinforced in the silence.

Let's speak now about the cemetary sequence from Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo. It is taught in cinema's schools.

I had the intuition it would be an important piece because it is a fundamental example of the interaction between image and music.

About this final sequence, Sergio Leone evokes a "ballet", a "choreography".

Yes, because there is one actor only, in a circular cemetery, who moves with the music and nothing else. After having shot this sequence, Sergio Leone thought it was like a ballet.

You put ahead some instruments like the English horn, for example.

The theme of this composition, of circa 3'20 or 3'30 long, is one of the most simple I ever wrote. It uses two fifth intervals, which I adore, and I often have in mind. Because it is a pure interval, almost neutral. It gives me some sort of suspension when I work with it.
The entering of the English horn after the piano, with these 2 fifth intervals: la mi do mi, la mi si sol [singing these notes] mi si sol, do re mi, sol do re mi...(4). The theme is achieved. 8 bars of this motive and I had to do 3'20.
The motive proceeds little by little, sounding accumulation. And at the end, the piano's "attack" comes, disturbing the theme [singing the piano part], with also the horn, the trumpet playing, inserted above the fifth's theme.
I allowed myself only a bridge, when the character (Tuco) stops, desperate. I had the impression that someone who is searching money in graves of a cemetery deserves that a mysterious spirit laughs at him. I stopped the rhythm at this moment, the theme stops. He is searching where to go, he doesn't know, and the bridge finishes when he starts to run again.
It was an important part in the film. For me too, it was an important musical experience. For these 3'20, Leone asked me a synchronization from the "breaks" of the action, to indicate what happens. But my question was not the break but the synchronization without hearing a break! The unique break is the one I told before: while Tuco stops, the music stops too, and takes again, in the final.

Notes:
(1): the prologue
(2): Altough Sergio Leone exposed the contrary in the book Noel Simsolo - Conversations avec Sergio Leone (Stock cinema, 1987, France): "Before the shooting, Morricone composed a music to illustrate this overture. I deleted it at the mixing, in order to keep only the noises. While Ennio watched this sequence, he listened with attention to the sounds, the silence, the wind's breath... Then he turned to me and said: "This is the nicest music I ever wrote."
(3): 1760-1842, conductor and composer
(*): Macchi, the film and contemporaneous composer (1928-1992)
(4): if there is no mistake in the transcription!